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theking
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Joined: Aug 19, 2008
Posts: 556
Location: Washington, D.C.
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 Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| I have such an awesome signature. |
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okiejack
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Joined: Sep 29, 2001
Posts: 8767
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| Computer_Guy wrote: |
| okiejack wrote: |
| Personanongrata wrote: |
| If a person can't be bothered to look at the evidence, and dismisses it out of hand using a nonsense label like "anti-freedom, why then do they think they can chime in on debate with any response of value to that evidence? |
Evidence? It's a docudrama! I don't have to watch them all because nothing changes. You see one you've seen them all. Also, HardBoiled posted it and I know HardBoiled is a conspiracy monger. |
Totally absurd Okie, that amounts to see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. You are talking about up to 30 documentaries not one. And the evidence presented far exceededs anything put out in support of the governments official story.
Appearantly you are at a stage in life when this is just not what you want to deal with. My own father has just about adopted that as his own position. He watched four or five, and became convinced the government is lieing. But for some reason he just doesn't want to know anymore.
There is no doubt the truth can be a hard thing to accept, it aint for the faint of heart.
At your advanced age I could see why confronting knowledge outside your government controlled propaganda bubble would be disturbing to you.
In anycase your presents here gives those of us that seek to inform our fellow Americans of the current administrations outragous crimes. A base board by which to measure the average Americans knowledge of events.
Which basicly tells me we are absolutely screwed. |
Well of course I disagree.
It is a fact that humans chose their belief systems not with logic but rather with emotion. And your reasoning about why I disagree is filled with reasons that belittle my ability to make a well reasoned choice. I have no doubt that if I committed my self to adopting your belief system? All that hyperbol you call "evidence" would become significant to me.
However, for me it is easy to see the contradictions and lack of logic in what you call evidence. It takes critical thinking skills to determine truth from fiction. Most people don't use their critical thinking skills but rather they use emotion to arrive at their conclusions.
The fact that you cannot refute my skepticism and must resort to insults. Supports the idea that you have chosen to believe what you believe with something other than logic. if you could explain why you believe the way you do? You wouldn't become so frustrated with me that you stike out verbally. |
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Computer_Guy
B.V. Info-a-holic
Joined: Sep 28, 2001
Posts: 7863
Location: US
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| okiejack wrote: |
| Computer_Guy wrote: |
| okiejack wrote: |
| Personanongrata wrote: |
| If a person can't be bothered to look at the evidence, and dismisses it out of hand using a nonsense label like "anti-freedom, why then do they think they can chime in on debate with any response of value to that evidence? |
Evidence? It's a docudrama! I don't have to watch them all because nothing changes. You see one you've seen them all. Also, HardBoiled posted it and I know HardBoiled is a conspiracy monger. |
Totally absurd Okie, that amounts to see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. You are talking about up to 30 documentaries not one. And the evidence presented far exceededs anything put out in support of the governments official story.
Appearantly you are at a stage in life when this is just not what you want to deal with. My own father has just about adopted that as his own position. He watched four or five, and became convinced the government is lieing. But for some reason he just doesn't want to know anymore.
There is no doubt the truth can be a hard thing to accept, it aint for the faint of heart.
At your advanced age I could see why confronting knowledge outside your government controlled propaganda bubble would be disturbing to you.
In anycase your presents here gives those of us that seek to inform our fellow Americans of the current administrations outragous crimes. A base board by which to measure the average Americans knowledge of events.
Which basicly tells me we are absolutely screwed. |
Well of course I disagree.
It is a fact that humans chose their belief systems not with logic but rather with emotion. And your reasoning about why I disagree is filled with reasons that belittle my ability to make a well reasoned choice. I have no doubt that if I committed my self to adopting your belief system? All that hyperbol you call "evidence" would become significant to me.
However, for me it is easy to see the contradictions and lack of logic in what you call evidence. It takes critical thinking skills to determine truth from fiction. Most people don't use their critical thinking skills but rather they use emotion to arrive at their conclusions.
The fact that you cannot refute my skepticism and must resort to insults. Supports the idea that you have chosen to believe what you believe with something other than logic. if you could explain why you believe the way you do? You wouldn't become so frustrated with me that you stike out verbally. |
First I made no effort to insult you. You made the choice to take my statement in that manner.
Second you cannot claim to be using critical thinking when you completely close your mind to anything other then government approved information. The government has no monoply on facts or evidence.
Third........your just plain stubborn and narrow minded, the truth be damned.
You speak about 9/11 Truth documentaries as if you were an authority! All the while making nonsensical statements about them having never even watched them. You would have us all believe life has somehow bestowed upon you the wisdom to see thru hours upon hours of menticulously gathered evidence that you have never bothered to watch. Sorry Okie that alone zero's out your credibility scale in my view.
You believe I am frustrated with you..........no not really. It's just that I would really enjoy having one of these discussions with you, with both of us working from the same sheet of music for once.
At present these discussions are pointless for the most part. It's like two men talking on the phone about a building construction, and only one has a set of plans. The guy without the plans keeps saying one aspect of the construction or the other is impossible. In his mind he is right, because he can't see the plans, and he has no idea how the engineers have designed the points in question.
Your working blind Okie............... |
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SRO
B.V. Info Seeker
Joined: Jul 25, 2004
Posts: 4459
Location: BC, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:06 am Post subject: |
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You said we kicked Vietnam off in the early 50's.
Would you like me to quote it for you?
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No. The US went too war with Vietnam in the early fifties
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No. The US went too war with Vietnam in the early fifties
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No. The US went too war with Vietnam in the early fifties |
LMFAO 
Oh I see, I was wrong on the date (which is obviously not what I was arguing) and that makes me a moron, I understand now. Had me confused for a second there.
Oh sheesh, alright, I hope your happy with your life and the people you hang around man, they must be the real 'intellectual' type looking for grammar errors and avoiding arguments by bashing and using completely off topic mistakes.
Have anything legitimate too argue, like the point of my post? |
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martiandrifter01
B.V. Info Seeker
Joined: Mar 28, 2008
Posts: 706
Location: Xanthe Terra, Sol IV/Mars
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| SRO wrote: |
| You started the war with Vietnam with lies, |
Really? So, that means the South Vietnamese government didn't request our aid in the fight against Communism? (US foreign policy at the time was to aid if asked) Check your friggin history books, slick.
| SRO wrote: |
| you had previous knowledge of Pearl Harbour (and prevoked it) and did nothing so you could get into WWII, |
Sweet! You are a conspiracy theorist, aren't you?
| SRO wrote: |
| and the ocean liner was intentionally sent into German controlled waters during war-time too be sank, you were warned, and went ahead anyway. |
Are you referring to HMS Lusitania? Think about it, Her Majesty ruled Canada, too. If Great Britain had allowed the passengers to know she was to be converted to an Armed Merchantman, they might have been able to book passage elsewhere.
| SRO wrote: |
| No. The US went too war with Vietnam in the early fifties because Vietnamese PT boats opened fire on US destroyers in international waters if you recall correctly. Which was a lie, and when it was exposed, THEN and only then were you in Nam too liberate south Vietnam. |
News flash: We didn't enter Vietnam in the early '50s. France was still there in force until 1955 and we didn't send in any 'Military Advisors' until 1959. Aid to the French Foreign Legion doesn't count.
SRO, you left out the reasons behind the Revolutionary War, the American Civil War and a host of others. All lies? Is this just on your say-so or do you have evidence? IF you have facts you can present HERE to support your claims, please do so. Otherwise you're talking out the wrong end. Have a nice day...
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SRO
B.V. Info Seeker
Joined: Jul 25, 2004
Posts: 4459
Location: BC, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:37 am Post subject: |
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Must say the legitimate argument is freshreshing at least MD. 
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| Really? So, that means the South Vietnamese government didn't request our aid in the fight against Communism? (US foreign policy at the time was to aid if asked) Check your friggin history books, slick. |
Probably was true, that was a part of the deception indeed, because North 'Nam was being bombed, they fired on a destroyer that was manuevering in their waters without permission. Now, the US destroyer wasn't firing (too my knowledge) as they say, so it was an unprovoked attack... But not really an unreasonable one considering the circumstance. Now as usual I didn't say anything you're arguing against me for. I never said that South Vietnam wasn't asking for help, I said the reasons the government gave you was a lie.
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| Sweet! You are a conspiracy theorist, aren't you? |
Not until just recently have people been calling me a "conspiracy theorist", no I am not a conspiracy theorist, except in a very select couple of things.
I do believe we landed on the moon,
I do believe that Elvis is dead
I do believe that Area 51 probably doesn't house anything sensitive anymore
I do believe that planes flew into the WTC on Tuesday September 11th 2001
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| News flash: We didn't enter Vietnam in the early '50s. France was still there in force until 1955 and we didn't send in any 'Military Advisors' until 1959. Aid to the French Foreign Legion doesn't count. |
LOL
Refer too previous post
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| SRO, you left out the reasons behind the Revolutionary War, the American Civil War and a host of others. All lies? |
No. Just the ones mentioned, clearly.
Now as I said earlier, the legitimate argument is appreciated and all, but the arrogance is a little uncalled for. No need for apoligies or anything, I was sarcastic in this post I think we should consider it even shall we?
Because we both know that you as well as I make mistakes, you're certainly not perfect.  |
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martiandrifter01
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Joined: Mar 28, 2008
Posts: 706
Location: Xanthe Terra, Sol IV/Mars
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:00 am Post subject: |
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SRO: Check Canadian histories on Lo That Than, Ho Chi Minh. Ngo Dinh Diem, and General Nguyen Van Thieu. Available online, too.
Yes, I make mistakes, I never claimed otherwise. But if you call me a liar I won't react kindly, just ask Echo, he missed the point about Monsanto not currently pursuing Terminator technology. Keyword: Current. CURRENT. CURRENT. Got it? THANK you...
This isn't a game of tit-for-tat. Maybe we're not blind to the current cycle of BS on the Web, posted by America-haters, promoted by 3rd World hotheads, reprinted by gullible children that don't know any better. 
Now...Cochinchina colony (southern 3rd of Vietnam) of France est. 1862.
Re-established as a republic of Indochinese Federation (still French), 1946.
United with Central and North regions to form State of Vietnam 1949, former Emperor Bao Dai presiding. Ho Chi Minh began fighting France to achieve full independence under Communist rule.
FOUND IT, on Wikipedia, stating that we started sending military advisors in 1950 rather than 1959. In 1950 the French were still in control and we were in Korea.
1954, Vietnam re-divided at 17th Parallel.
1956, Ngo Dinh Diem rejects Geneva accords and starts requesting aid from US instead of France.
1959, Eisenhower wins approval of Senate to deploy military advisors.
1963, first real escalation due to increased Soviet involvement.
The rest you can find yourself, the time-line's established. Our government didn't lie to us, Jane Fonda did, may she burn in Traitor's Hell for eternity. |
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SRO
B.V. Info Seeker
Joined: Jul 25, 2004
Posts: 4459
Location: BC, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:46 am Post subject: |
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I'm don't think I called you a liar... >.>
And yes I'm quite aware of dumbies making documentaries to stupid ends in order to spread things that simply are not true.
Watch "Loose Change" This is a perfect example of one of these videos. It has some facts, backed up by a lot lot of misinformation and left out realities.
Which is why I don't consider myself a conspiracy theorist by your definition, I don't look at things and think "I wonder how I could think it out in my head so that the government is the bad guy"
In some situations, I have made up my opinion, that happens too coincide with those of some conspiracy theorists who believe that the highest ranking US officials and whatnot all attend the Bohemian Grove and practice homosexuality and satanic rituals.
And your government did lie too you. They later said it was "a mistake" or "bad intelligence".
It comes out too who you want too believe is the bottom line. You don't have all the facts, you have the facts as they've been presented too you by the one you believe. |
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theking
B.V. Info Seeker
Joined: Aug 19, 2008
Posts: 556
Location: Washington, D.C.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| SRO wrote: |
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You said we kicked Vietnam off in the early 50's.
Would you like me to quote it for you?
Quote:
No. The US went too war with Vietnam in the early fifties
Quote:
No. The US went too war with Vietnam in the early fifties
Quote:
No. The US went too war with Vietnam in the early fifties |
LMFAO
Oh I see, I was wrong on the date (which is obviously not what I was arguing) and that makes me a moron, I understand now. Had me confused for a second there.
Oh sheesh, alright, I hope your happy with your life and the people you hang around man, they must be the real 'intellectual' type looking for grammar errors and avoiding arguments by bashing and using completely off topic mistakes.
Have anything legitimate too argue, like the point of my post? |
Your argument became gaseous once people began to realize you are doing nothing more than regurgitating snippets of information that you aren't even very well versed on. |
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SRO
B.V. Info Seeker
Joined: Jul 25, 2004
Posts: 4459
Location: BC, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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Pardon? Reguritating information? How do you figure? Are you talking about that Wiki article?
What do you take me for? Again, clearly don't know me very well, I didn't look at anything before saying it started in the 50's, the first site I was at was the one Nessaie posted after my post. It was a case of faded memory.
Sorry fella, don't worry though I do make mistakes, this just wasn't one of them. Better luck next time. |
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martiandrifter01
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Joined: Mar 28, 2008
Posts: 706
Location: Xanthe Terra, Sol IV/Mars
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:57 am Post subject: |
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No, SRO, I didn't say you called me a liar, it was just a caution; at least you seem to accept that I can make a mistake without being a moron...I think.
The point I was debating was what brought us into Vietnam. The basic reason was that--if you're ready for it--Jack Kennedy was being tested by Nikita Kruschev's Soviet 'empire' to see if he still had the cojones to fight. Or did you forget about the Cold War? It was serious enough that Canada let us install the DEW Line, wasn't it? Please don't forget the past, it's a dishonor to our fathers.
Speaking of which, mine dragged us to Canada for 3 years while he trained RCAF mechanics to work on McDonnell F-101 Voodoos. Which would have been unnecessary if the Avro plant hadn't been infiltrated and the plans for their Mach 3 interceptor stolen, resulting in the scrubbing of the project. Not that I minded, I was quite young, learned some French (since forgotten), and South Ontario's warmer than Grand Forks.
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SRO
B.V. Info Seeker
Joined: Jul 25, 2004
Posts: 4459
Location: BC, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| No, SRO, I didn't say you called me a liar, it was just a caution; at least you seem to accept that I can make a mistake without being a moron...I think. |
Of course I do, everyone makes mistakes as we all have clearly demonstrated in the past I'm sure, including myself. Not a one of us here doesn't make mistakes, and if you say you don't, well you're a damn liar. 
| Quote: |
| The point I was debating was what brought us into Vietnam. |
Well whatever the moral reason actually was, which I'm sure there are some, what got the majority of the US population willing to support the war was the second attack on a US destroyer in "international" waters.
Mind you, I'm but a teenager still for a year or so and as such I don't have the advantage to having first hand recollection of the time period and have to go off of what I read and hear-say
History is not true, but rather is the accounts of the ones who survived it.  |
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martiandrifter01
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Joined: Mar 28, 2008
Posts: 706
Location: Xanthe Terra, Sol IV/Mars
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:03 am Post subject: |
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SRO, I remember seeing newscasts of Dwight Eisenhower and John Kennedy on the History and Military Channels not long ago that would lay this argument to rest. All the major networks covered their addresses; it's public knowledge as to our intentions and reasons for being there. I found you another link if you'd care to follow it, scroll down to the bit about the aid package signed in 1961.
http://www.vietnamwar.com/warhistory.htm
Anyway, I'm certain there's enough conflicting stories on the Web to make your head spin; the best one can do is wade through the different tales (on any subject) and try to sort out the bad from the good. Beyond that, ask folks that should remember, like G2. He's got a small age advantage on me.
I was born shortly before the first combat advisors were sent to Nam (assuming mid-1959 as a starting point), still remember my dad coming home to grab his duffel and B-4 bag before disappearing for 2 weeks in 1962 and again in 1963. And the lovely rumble of more jet engines than you can imagine as our B-52's and F-102's scrambled, heading for their Fail Safe points. Old enough to remember but not, at the time, to understand.
Our next stop was RCAF North Bay, Ontario, from early '64 to early '67. Moose hunts, camping trips, Dad cut his chin on a turbine blade inspecting a Voodoo engine, General Thyng http://www.af.mil/bios/bio.asp?bioID=7386
coming around on Christmas...it was fun!
Anyway: Don't take my word for it, SRO, keep surfing for the answers. Try Googling the Vietnam War. Good luck... |
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