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humphreys
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 Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| okiejack wrote: |
| I think Tom may be refering to the Bible fact that GOD already chose all the faithful before he created them. It is a very difficult idea to think about since we feel that we have freedom of choice. Also, Paul made the same statement as Tom about those who walk away from their faith, having never really believed in the first place. |
Yeah, exactly, and here is a prime example of the horrible and ridiculous position the believers are in. Given an absurd statement like that in the Bible, the believer is forced to reject a blatantly obvious fact in reality, that people can believe and have faith in God, then lose it, when instead, any reasonable person would conclude that some writings made by primitive beings thousands of years ago might be occasionally inaccurate!
It's a sad situation to be in, but if the Bible told the believer the sky was yellow, that's what they'd have to believe.
It's craaaaaaaaaaazy. |
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Personanongrata
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:12 am Post subject: |
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| okiejack wrote: |
| I think Tom may be refering to the Bible fact that GOD already chose all the faithful before he created them. It is a very difficult idea to think about since we feel that we have freedom of choice. Also, Paul made the same statement as Tom about those who walk away from their faith, having never really believed in the first place. |
So, do you support Tom's conception of a "scientist God", as well?  |
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Item7
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:59 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
Tom wrote:
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My view (and the view of many Protestant Christians) is, if you "no longer" believe in God, you never believed in the first place. That's not meant as an insult at all... just commenting.
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Some churches say if you believed in God, and then lost your faith, you are a back slider. The person really did believe, and was saved, but then they went back to the world and its ways. This person still believes, but chooses to live a sinners life.
Perhaps you are talking about something different. I never heard of what you are talking about before.
Of course there is another kind of person who did believe then lost that belief due to their own life experiences. But this person also actually did believe at one time in their life.
If a person says they believe in God, then they do, unless they are lying. If a person no longer believes in God, who are we to say they never did?
Please explain what you are talking about.
Thanks,
Item7 |
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tarsustom
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| Personanongrata wrote: |
| tarsustom wrote: |
| humphreys wrote: |
| So, either starman is a liar, or he thinks he believed, but didn't. |
I made a mistake. I let myself confuse belief and faith. 2 different things and my angle involves faith. My bad!  |
Explain the difference to us, Tom? Is faith a stronger degree of belief? Could it be said that faith is blind loyalty to a belief? |
I'll say this. It's actually easy for a Christian especially, to confuse belief and faith. Before I go further, the bible makes it clear. Belief in and of itself is not enough to warrant justification. It takes faith and belief to be justified.
Anyway, the reason I confused the two is because true belief, from a Christian standpoint exclusively, is intertwined with faith.
When we say the bible calls us to 'believe in' Christ. The Greek word translated as 'in' is a Greek word that translated literally means 'into.' We are called to 'believe into Christ.' You might have heard a Christian say they are "in Christ." When we believe into Christ, we dwell within Him, and He in turn dwells within us. And that cannot be achieved without faith. Chrisitan faith is part of Christian belief.
Put more succinctly, a Christian definition of belief is really believing into Christ, which requires faith. The two really can't be separated from a Christian stance. They are distinct but codependent for lack of a better word.
Last edited by tarsustom on Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:06 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Bear23
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| Item7 wrote: |
Hi,
Tom wrote:
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My view (and the view of many Protestant Christians) is, if you "no longer" believe in God, you never believed in the first place. That's not meant as an insult at all... just commenting.
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Of course there is another kind of person who did believe then lost that belief due to their own life experiences. But this person also actually did believe at one time in their life.
If a person says they believe in God, then they do, unless they are lying. If a person no longer believes in God, who are we to say they never did? |
I would have to agree with Item on this one because this is exactly what happened to me. I used to be christian. |
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Proverbs 18:24- A man that hath friends must show himself friendly: and there is a friend that sticks closer than a brother.
Proverbs 11:2- When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom.
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tarsustom
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:15 am Post subject: |
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To avoid a 2nd edit on my above... I'll tack on this last thing PNG
I think I'm right when I say (Christian viewpoint as always) that true belief requires faith.
But not the other way around. Faith requires the gift of grace from God.
Satan believes in God. How can he not? Yet, that belief is not coupled with faith... faith in the word of God... faith in Christ as the Son of God who will execute Satan once and for all.
Um, the point I was making to Saturos (my belief and the belief of certain demoninations) is that though he says he believed but doesn't anymore... I say, he never actually believed, at least as I and all Christians define it. He didn't have the faith-filled true belief because if he did, he would still have it. Obviously, he was never ENTIRELY convinced of the word of God, or else he never would have changed his mind.
The bible says belief without faith is "dead."
Doctrinally speaking, some Christians believe that since Saturos has changed his mind, he never received the gift of grace from God. The gift of grace is permanent in nature. Unless a Christian wants to entertain the notion that God would give grace to someone, intending for them to achieve faith, but utterly fail in His plan. God doesn't fail. If He intends for someone to be reborn, He makes it happen without fail. |
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Personanongrata
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:18 am Post subject: |
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Let me rephrase my earlier post then:
I don't believe Tom believes into his belief!  |
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Bear23
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| Are you saying that God chooses who will be saved and who wont be, Tarsutom? |
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Proverbs 18:24- A man that hath friends must show himself friendly: and there is a friend that sticks closer than a brother.
Proverbs 11:2- When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom.
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Personanongrata
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| Bear23 wrote: |
| Are you saying that God chooses who will be saved and who wont be, Tarsutom? |
I thought that was what he said he believes, in several threads... which kind of renders the crucifiction irrelevant, but it's not my roll of phoney baloney, so why should I have to slice it for him? |
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tarsustom
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| Bear23 wrote: |
| Are you saying that God chooses who will be saved and who wont be, Tarsutom? |
Absolutely! |
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okiejack
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| I agree with Tom. That's the idea the Bible gives me. |
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Personanongrata
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: |
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Well, seeing how there are only a special few handpicked by God to live forever at His side, and He's going to come down sooner or later and tear the earth a new one, anyway...
Howzabout you pious goody-goodies shut the hell up & leave the rest of us in the world alone, already?
I mean, not very holy of ya, rubbing it in that Daddy loves you more. 
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fortwynt
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: |
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I don't believe that anyone is "pre-destined" to salvation....i think that is an erroneous belief that has little or no evidence to support it.
If that's the case, who bother doing good or doing anything at all besides evil? Aside from the logical implications, but after all if we were predestined to be saved/damned....nah im not even going to elaborate on that line of thought because it's completely ridiculous....it would make everything Christ said and did totally nil....and since christ's words were highly logical and (even aside from religion) make perfect sense....nah...that's just a step too far. |
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Bear23
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| tarsustom wrote: |
| Bear23 wrote: |
| Are you saying that God chooses who will be saved and who wont be, Tarsutom? |
Absolutely! |
Meh....... thas....... lame. So lame i can't think of anything to say......... dang..... |
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Proverbs 18:24- A man that hath friends must show himself friendly: and there is a friend that sticks closer than a brother.
Proverbs 11:2- When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom.
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fortwynt
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:31 am Post subject: |
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On that note, I will explain the difference between one churches belief on this subject, and anothers.
Mind you I grew up going to many different types of churches, i will point out only two here.
"southern" baptist, and pentacostal...two somewhat extreme (at opposite ends) of protestant-ism.
Every baptist church I have ever been in, believes in what is called by some, "Eternal Salvation"....in other words (on top of their belief that people are somewhat predestined to be saved or damned) they believe in "once saved, always saved"...in OTHER words, once you accept christ and are *poof* saved, then no matter what you do the rest of your life you are guaranteed a position in heaven.
After deciding this was rubbish, I questioned the preacher at the church i was in at the time.....how can this be, i said? What if i am saved, and then I go out and totally flip flop and steal and lie and kill and all manner of other things?....His response? And you're gonna love this....."Well, if that's truly the case, that person wasnt REALLY saved to begin with".
Contrast that with the Pentacostal church I went to (which dont get me wrong, I no longer attend because i think 99 percent of what they teach is ALSO rubbish, but on this point I can definitely agree)...they teach that even after a person accepts Christ (granted, being truly "saved" to them entails a little more complexity than that) they can "backslide"...in other words a person can still end up in hell after being saved.....
and I tend to agree....mostly....I think that salvation is not a one time *boom* now you're saved congratulations....I think salvation is a work in progress that literally spans the duration of your life.
There seems to be no other thing that would make real sense.
Once saved always saved? I don't hardly think so.
In other words, I think each day the choices you make impact your eternal existence once this life is over...i dont think it is a one time shot that you get a free pass on...i think YOU decide what happens after you die, whether one believes in heaven, hell, or whatever the case may be. |
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