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sotexas_spi
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 Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:15 pm Post subject: Why God? The biblical one, that is.... |
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If....yes..if...if there were no Bible would you still believe in a single deity?
Cultures around the world, as the same time that Christianity finally decided there was a single god, believed in a number of gods.
Of course we now are more "sophisticated" and rational, but nonetheless, some still believe in that single, invisible, temperamental, fickle, god in the sky...the "God" of Abraham. (which is not true in its' self...more on that later)
American Plains Indians believed in "spirits" rather than gods. But eventually they came to believe in one "Great Spirit" that inhabited every animal, Human..every living thing.
One tribe believed the Wolf to be a god.
The Navajo believed in many gods, the most powerful of them all was Sun Bearer.
The cultures of the islands of the South Pacific believed in multiple gods, tho they didn't "see" them as gods.
Australian Aboriginals also believed in many gods.
You get my point.
So...being the rational, sophisticated society we now, ostensibly are today, without the Bible, would you still believe in a single god.
Or rather would you believe, as many today admit to, believe in a "Universal Force"?
Disclaimer: Many followers of Native American Spirituality, do not regard their spiritual beliefs and practices as a "religion" in the way in which many Christians do. Their beliefs and practices form a integral and seamless part of their very being.
(religioustolercance.com)
Pax Vobiscum  |
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Questioner101
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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Always have enjoyed the idea that Native American religions seem to teach, that every plant, animal, and stone is alive.
It's something that once existed prior to christianity's conquests, but shades of it still exist.
When one reads a Harry Potter book, Lord of the Rings or hears the Arthurian tales...the divas, sprites, elves, trolls, dwarves are there.....all the woodland creatures that we've paved paradise and put up a parking lot, over. |
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Nesaie
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: Why God? The biblical one, that is.... |
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| sotexas_spi wrote: |
So...being the rational, sophisticated society we now, ostensibly are today, without the Bible, would you still believe in a single god. |
Yes, I still believe in God. However, I'd debate you about being a rational or sophisticated society today.  
| sotexas_spi wrote: |
Or rather would you believe, as many today admit to, believe in a "Universal Force"? |
Does there have to be a difference? The idea of Panatheism (not Pantheism) allows for both.
I personally see it no different that what little I've learned about science. I was once told that when I touch a table...or heck, these keys that I'm typing now, I have electrons mingling with the electrons of the keyboard. When I do that, doesn't that make me "One" with that "Object"? After all, if we expanded our electrons, nutrons, and protons out so we could see them, there'd be mostly space between them. What is that?
Don't we give off infrared energy? Aren't we made of matter and energy? Since other objects also have matter and some kind of energy, wouldn't those be similar? We claim to have self awareness...but do we really? How do we know other "objects" don't have self awareness? Do animals have self awareness?
Could that "self awareness" be God?
I don't know the answers to any of these things. I'm just asking.
I like the concepts I've read about Buddhism. Regardless of "ultimate Truth", what if we treated each other as gods, or at least an aspect of God? That would include animals and all of nature. Heck, it may even include objects. But, if we did treat all as gods, wouldn't we then need to respect All? Of course that includes ourselves too.
I dunno...just rambling here. 
| sotexas_spi wrote: |
Disclaimer: Many followers of Native American Spirituality, do not regard their spiritual beliefs and practices as a "religion" in the way in which many Christians do. Their beliefs and practices form a integral and seamless part of their very being.
(religioustolercance.com)
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Side note. A buddy of mine is from Metlakatla. He called me today and I wished him a happy thanksgiving...then we laughed. |
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Soma: All the advantages of Christianity and alcohol; none of their defects.
Have you had your Soma today? |
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hardboiled
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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My favorite one is Raven and his trickster, greedy and mischievous nature, but who is also teacher to humans on how to live a good life. The Raven has supernatural powers and uses them to obtain important things for humans like he did with sun and the moon...he stole the sun, moon and stars for humans, as well as giving them fresh water, salmon and fire.
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Questioner101
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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Isn't it interesting that half a world away, one culture has a teaching about "Promethius" stealing fire for humans...only this time, it's Raven.
Maybe Jung and his archetypes, and Joseph Campbell had it right, history is stored in our smallest particle...and they all communicate with each other. |
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hardboiled
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Questioner101 wrote: |
Isn't it interesting that half a world away, one culture has a teaching about "Promethius" stealing fire for humans...only this time, it's Raven.
Maybe Jung and his archetypes, and Joseph Campbell had it right, history is stored in our smallest particle...and they all communicate with each other. |
I couldn't agree more. NOW isn't that SOMETHING PROFOUNDLY BEAUTIFUL?!?! |
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sotexas_spi
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:03 am Post subject: Re: Why God? The biblical one, that is.... |
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| Nesaie wrote: |
| sotexas_spi wrote: |
So...being the rational, sophisticated society we now, ostensibly are today, without the Bible, would you still believe in a single god. |
Yes, I still believe in God. However, I'd debate you about being a rational or sophisticated society today. |
I get the "wink", Nesaie, however, regardless of one's cynicism, we are a more rational, enlightened society. We no longer fear the mysteries of nature or wonder at the comets that traverse the Universe. We now understand the "whys" of our surroundings....within certain boundries, that is.
| Nesaie wrote: |
| sotexas_spi wrote: |
Or rather would you believe, as many today admit to, believe in a "Universal Force"? |
Does there have to be a difference? The idea of Panatheism (not Pantheism) allows for both.
I personally see it no different that what little I've learned about science. I was once told that when I touch a table...or heck, these keys that I'm typing now, I have electrons mingling with the electrons of the keyboard. When I do that, doesn't that make me "One" with that "Object"? After all, if we expanded our electrons, nutrons, and protons out so we could see them, there'd be mostly space between them. What is that?
Don't we give off infrared energy? Aren't we made of matter and energy? Since other objects also have matter and some kind of energy, wouldn't those be similar? We claim to have self awareness...but do we really? How do we know other "objects" don't have self awareness? Do animals have self awareness?
Could that "self awareness" be God?
I don't know the answers to any of these things. I'm just asking.
I like the concepts I've read about Buddhism. Regardless of "ultimate Truth", what if we treated each other as gods, or at least an aspect of God? That would include animals and all of nature. Heck, it may even include objects. But, if we did treat all as gods, wouldn't we then need to respect All? Of course that includes ourselves too.
I dunno...just rambling here.
| sotexas_spi wrote: |
Disclaimer: Many followers of Native American Spirituality, do not regard their spiritual beliefs and practices as a "religion" in the way in which many Christians do. Their beliefs and practices form a integral and seamless part of their very being.
(religioustolercance.com)
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Side note. A buddy of mine is from Metlakatla. He called me today and I wished him a happy thanksgiving...then we laughed. |
See, Nesaie, you have just said what I've contended all along. Man is his own God/god. Self-awareness and the understanding of our place within the Universe, as well as our "place" within it puts us above every other living thing.....well..except maybe cats. They think they're above everything else....now there's an aloof entity! 
As for Buddhism...I prefer to think of it as a personal guide for life and how to live my life. However, I enjoy utilizing the teachings of Sun Tzu to the situations that arise in my life.
Pax Vobiscum |
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Nesaie
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:52 am Post subject: |
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Hey guys, don't forget Loki.
| Sotexas_spi wrote: |
we are a more rational, enlightened society. We no longer fear the mysteries of nature or wonder at the comets that traverse the Universe. |
Rational? By what criteria? I see a lot of irrational behavior in modern society.
Enlightened? Just because we use electricity doesn't mean we're enlightened. How do you define enlightenment? I see stupid people.
| Sotexas_spi wrote: |
We now understand the "whys" of our surroundings....within certain boundries, that is. |
Not really. All we do is run around and name things. When we give a name to things we believe we understand it. But, just because a virus is named a virus, does that mean we understand it? Doctors still can't "cure" us from virii (but garlic and chicken soup sure helps). As far as modern day society having answers to the question of "why"...ugg....never. We may have some answers to "how" or "what" ("what" is answered by the naming convention we choose), but the "why" is one of the lures of religion and philosophy.
We know that a seed planted in fertile dirt and enough water will grow into a plant. We know how this works, which plant it will become, what ingredients are necessary, but we'll never know "why" it works. It just works...or there is a hidden hand guiding it. Hence, the intelligent design debate.
Modern society is just what it is. I'm not sure that we are better off or worse off than previous societies. We just live in a different society with different toys to play with. |
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Soma: All the advantages of Christianity and alcohol; none of their defects.
Have you had your Soma today? |
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Questioner101
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:06 am Post subject: |
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If we were living in previous societies, they would see everyone carrying rocks around and talking/worshiping them....(cells, blackberries, i-pods, laptops etc.)
We worship silicone chips.  |
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hardboiled
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| Hehehe...good posts people. |
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I'm just a man...not good enough to be saved, but not bad enough to be damned. |
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sotexas_spi
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| Nesaie wrote: |
Hey guys, don't forget Loki.
| Sotexas_spi wrote: |
we are a more rational, enlightened society. We no longer fear the mysteries of nature or wonder at the comets that traverse the Universe. |
Rational? By what criteria? I see a lot of irrational behavior in modern society.
Enlightened? Just because we use electricity doesn't mean we're enlightened. How do you define enlightenment? I see stupid people.
| Sotexas_spi wrote: |
We now understand the "whys" of our surroundings....within certain boundries, that is. |
Not really. All we do is run around and name things. When we give a name to things we believe we understand it. But, just because a virus is named a virus, does that mean we understand it? Doctors still can't "cure" us from virii (but garlic and chicken soup sure helps). As far as modern day society having answers to the question of "why"...ugg....never. We may have some answers to "how" or "what" ("what" is answered by the naming convention we choose), but the "why" is one of the lures of religion and philosophy.
We know that a seed planted in fertile dirt and enough water will grow into a plant. We know how this works, which plant it will become, what ingredients are necessary, but we'll never know "why" it works. It just works...or there is a hidden hand guiding it. Hence, the intelligent design debate.
Modern society is just what it is. I'm not sure that we are better off or worse off than previous societies. We just live in a different society with different toys to play with. |
Now...see? There you go again. It would seem you have absolutely no faith in Mankind.
You cannot deny the reality that We, as a society, have advanced lightyears from where we were 500 years ago...or even 100 years ago.
You know...I describe myself as a "Cynical Realist"...in otherwords, I understand that Man has a "dark" side and that dark side will expose itself on occasion. But I refuse to believe that the dark side is dominant in the world, altho, sometimes one has to wonder.
But you...I think you have a cynical naivete' about you. You expect Man to be ultimately evil, yet have a hard time accepting the outcome of some event, simply by saying, "Well...what did you expect."
As for "enlightenment"...Emmanuel Kant said it well way back in 1784:
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-incurred immaturity. Immaturity is the inability to use one's own understanding without the guidance of another. This immaturity is self-incurred if its cause is not lack of understanding, but lack of resolution and courage to use it without the guidance of another. The motto of enlightenment is therefore: Sapere aude! Have courage to use your own understanding!"
We know now of the existence of atoms, electrons and protons. We, ostensibly, understand, more or less, how things "work". We don't know everything...we'd be fools to assume so.
And right there is the challenge of many Believers when discussing creation. "Well, if God didn't create everything, where did it all start?" The rational, enlightend (honest) person admits that we don't have all the answers. The Believer lets it go at "God" did it all....'nuff said. It isn't a case of " 'nuff said. It's so much more....it's just that right now, at this time, it's beyond our comprehension...but that doesn't make it evidence of the bibical case for Creation.
Pax Vobiscum |
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Nesaie
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:12 am Post subject: |
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I have faith in true human nature and children. However, I believe that modern society suppresses true human nature. I don't expect mankind to be "evil", but I do expect society, as it is today and justified by modern religions, to do great harm.
We named atoms, neutrons and electrons. Whether we had discovered them or not, they'd still be there. That discovery allows us to make more efficient weapons and murder more people. Nuclear technology can be used for energy, but it is a dangerous toy to play with. Look at Chernobyl. If electricity hadn't been discovered, we wouldn't need nuclear technology.
You make the claim that we're so much better and smarter than we were before, but I'm not sure that is true. We have technology which is a tool and can be used for both bad and good. But, in this country most of the toys that are created, like GPS, initially are created for the military with the intent of murdering more people. After a few years, when the companies who created the technology want to make more money, the tech begins to be sold to the public. Hell, even this internet thing-a-ma-bob was created by the Pentagon. Much of our modern day science is based on the intent to murder more people.
I've heard the claim that we're better off today because people live longer. But, at what cost? Do old folks have a good quality of life? They're on pills for everything today. Some are in nursing homes without a memory. Life and death are natural. The only people I see gaining from this is the pharmaceutical companies and the hospitals. We don't heal people any more, just keep them sick enough for pills and alive enough to make more money. We use radiation to "cure" cancer. We know radiation causes cancer. We don't allow therapies in this country that work in others, yet get FDA approval for drugs like aspartame which we know eats a person's brain.
We have new diseases that never used to exist, like bulimia and anorexia. We have new emotional disorders that get named all the time. We call most energetic children, ADHD so we can medicate them. Years ago, we used to have a thing called parents. Mom raised the kids and dealt with their energy. Kids ran around outside, rather than get drugged up. Neighbors called other parents if they saw "Johnny" doing something he wasn't supposed to.
With all this new enlightenment and science, we still have twisted interpretations of religions that run around and murder in the name of their "god". We have people who promote hate and racism, in the name of their "god". People would rather be told how to think and believe by some outside thing, than experience and think for themselves. We're taught what to think, not how to think. We're told to look for answers outside ourselves rather than looking inside.
Everywhere in this "great" "enlightened" society we're taught fear. On the news every night is crime. We're fearful that our stuff may get stolen. We're fearful we might get in a car wreck. We're fearful that the boogieman might get us if we go outside at night. All this fear stops us from truly being free.
We don't have neighborhoods anymore. We walk down the street and we're afraid to look at those who walk past us, let alone talk to them.
Tell me again how great this society is? The only people I benefiting are the corporations and the tax man...oh and those who love to murder and make money from death. But, that'd be the corporations again. |
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Soma: All the advantages of Christianity and alcohol; none of their defects.
Have you had your Soma today? |
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Questioner101
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| We, as a society, have advanced lightyears from where we were 500 years ago...or even 100 years ago. |
Actually was thinking the reverse, that we have retreated to our earphone caves, our computer caves and are just beating our rocks together. |
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Neal51
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Questioner101 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| We, as a society, have advanced lightyears from where we were 500 years ago...or even 100 years ago. |
Actually was thinking the reverse, that we have retreated to our earphone caves, our computer caves and are just beating our rocks together. |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff2Q1whykVQ |
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hardboiled
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| Nesaie wrote: |
I have faith in true human nature and children. However, I believe that modern society suppresses true human nature. I don't expect mankind to be "evil", but I do expect society, as it is today and justified by modern religions, to do great harm.
We named atoms, neutrons and electrons. Whether we had discovered them or not, they'd still be there. That discovery allows us to make more efficient weapons and murder more people. Nuclear technology can be used for energy, but it is a dangerous toy to play with. Look at Chernobyl. If electricity hadn't been discovered, we wouldn't need nuclear technology.
You make the claim that we're so much better and smarter than we were before, but I'm not sure that is true. We have technology which is a tool and can be used for both bad and good. But, in this country most of the toys that are created, like GPS, initially are created for the military with the intent of murdering more people. After a few years, when the companies who created the technology want to make more money, the tech begins to be sold to the public. Hell, even this internet thing-a-ma-bob was created by the Pentagon. Much of our modern day science is based on the intent to murder more people.
I've heard the claim that we're better off today because people live longer. But, at what cost? Do old folks have a good quality of life? They're on pills for everything today. Some are in nursing homes without a memory. Life and death are natural. The only people I see gaining from this is the pharmaceutical companies and the hospitals. We don't heal people any more, just keep them sick enough for pills and alive enough to make more money. We use radiation to "cure" cancer. We know radiation causes cancer. We don't allow therapies in this country that work in others, yet get FDA approval for drugs like aspartame which we know eats a person's brain.
We have new diseases that never used to exist, like bulimia and anorexia. We have new emotional disorders that get named all the time. We call most energetic children, ADHD so we can medicate them. Years ago, we used to have a thing called parents. Mom raised the kids and dealt with their energy. Kids ran around outside, rather than get drugged up. Neighbors called other parents if they saw "Johnny" doing something he wasn't supposed to.
With all this new enlightenment and science, we still have twisted interpretations of religions that run around and murder in the name of their "god". We have people who promote hate and racism, in the name of their "god". People would rather be told how to think and believe by some outside thing, than experience and think for themselves. We're taught what to think, not how to think. We're told to look for answers outside ourselves rather than looking inside.
Everywhere in this "great" "enlightened" society we're taught fear. On the news every night is crime. We're fearful that our stuff may get stolen. We're fearful we might get in a car wreck. We're fearful that the boogieman might get us if we go outside at night. All this fear stops us from truly being free.
We don't have neighborhoods anymore. We walk down the street and we're afraid to look at those who walk past us, let alone talk to them.
Tell me again how great this society is? The only people I benefiting are the corporations and the tax man...oh and those who love to murder and make money from death. But, that'd be the corporations again. |
Tank you for saying this...makes me feel better to know there are still real and awake humans around and that goes for anybody who sees this in same light!!! |
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_________________
I'm just a man...not good enough to be saved, but not bad enough to be damned. |
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