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sotexas_spi
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 Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:41 am Post subject: Christian Violence...Yesterday AND Today, Greeney |
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| Greeney2 wrote: |
So you can not give a single example of any other religion, Christian or otherwise, that has done anything remotely close to this in the year 2007.
No other religion , does the kind of thing Muslims do like this! |
Ask and ye shall receive, Pops! But you "loaded" your position by limiting the timeframe. Expand your mind and the truth is revealed. Christianity is just as violent and present as it was 100years ago.
Christian Violence in History
The horrible truth is that, numerically and statistically speaking, Christian Civilization is the bloodiest and most violent of all civilizations in all of history, and is responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths.
Saint Augustine’s cognite intrare (“lead them in”—i.e. “force them to convert”). In fact the Qur’an says the exact opposite: There is no compulsion in religion ( 2:256 ). Augustine’s frightening idea that all must be compelled to “conform” to the “true Christian faith” has unleashed centuries of unparalleled bloodshed. Indeed, Christians have suffered more under the rule of Christian civilization than under pre- Christian Roman rule or any other rule in history.
Millions were tortured and slaughtered in the name of Christianity during the periods of the Arian, Donatist and Albigensian heresies
The Crusades
The European armies were saying, as they slaughtered both Christian and Muslim Arabs: “Kill them all, God will know his own.”
Europe's Reformation and Counter Reformation Era
Two thirds of the Christian population of Europe was slaughtered by Christians
The African slave trade
Claimed the lives of 10 million
The Colonial Conquests
Estimates for the number of Native Americans slaughtered by the Europeans in North, Central and South America run as high as 20 million within three generations.
The 20th century's Western Civilization took warfare to new extremes
A conservative estimate puts the total number of brutal deaths in the 20 th century at more than 250 million. Of these, Muslims are responsible for less than 10 million deaths. Christians, or those coming from Christian backgrounds account for more than 200 million of these! The greatest death totals come from World War I (about 20 million, at least 90 % of which were inflicted by “Christians”) and World War II ( 90 million, at least 50% of which were inflicted by “Christians,” the majority of the rest occurring in the Far East). Given this grim history, it appears that we Europeans must all come to grips with the fact that Islamic civilization has actually been incomparably less brutal than Christian civilization. Did the Holocaust of over 6 million Jews occur out of the background of a Muslim Civilization?
In the 20th century alone
Western and/or Christian powers have been responsible for at least twenty times more deaths than have Muslim powers. In this most brutal of centuries, we created incomparably more civilian casualties than have Muslims in the whole of Islamic history.
In the 20th century, Rawanda, 1994
Witness the slaughter of 900,000 Rwandans in 1994 in a population that was over 90 % Christian
1992-1995 Bosnia
The genocide of over 300,000 Muslims and systematic rape of over 100,000 Muslim women by Christian Serbs
Western popular culture
It should also be mentioned that although Islam has the concept of legitimate war in self-defense (as does Christianity, and even Buddhism), nowhere in Islamic culture (or in other cultures that survive today) is there latent the idealization, and perhaps idolization, of violence that exists in Western Culture. Westerners think of themselves as peaceful, but in fact the gentleness and sublimity of the New Testament, and the peace-loving nature of the principles of democracy, are scarcely reflected in Western popular culture. Rather, the entire inclination of popular culture— Hollywood movies, Western television, video games, popular music and sports entertainment—is to glorify and inculcate violence. Accordingly, the relative rates of murder (especially random and serial murder) are higher in the Western World (particularly in the U.S., but even in Europe, taken as a whole) than they are in the Islamic world in counties that are not suffering civil wars, and this true despite the much greater wealth of the West.
From religioustolerance.org
Current conflicts and wars:
It is important to realize that most of the world's current "hot spots" have a complex interaction of economic, racial, ethnic, religious, and other factors. We list below some conflicts which have as their base at least some degree of religious intolerance:
(I edited out the Muslim conflicts for obvious reasons...Christian violence is being questioned. sotexas_spi)
Kosovo Serbian Orthodox Christians & Muslims
Peace enforced by NATO peacekeepers. There is convincing evidence of past mass murder by Yugoslavian government (mainly Serbian Orthodox Christians) against ethnic Albanians (mostly Muslim) Full story
Northern Ireland Protestants, Catholics
After 3,600 killings and assassinations over 30 years, some progress has been made in the form of a ceasefire and an independent status for the country.
Philippines Christians & Muslims
A low level conflict between the mainly Christian central government and Muslims in the south of the country has continued for centuries. More details
Uganda Animists, Christians, & Muslims
Christian rebels of the Lord's Resistance Army are conducting a civil war in the north of Uganda. Their goal is a Christian theocracy whose laws are based on the Ten Commandments. They abduct, enslave and/or raped about 2,000 children a year.
Christian Violence in America
MARK JUERGENSMEYER
As the millennium approaches, the wave of antimodernism that has brought violent movements of religious nationalism in its wake around the world has arrived at America's shores. In the United States, attacks on abortion clinics, the killing of abortion clinic staff, and the destructive acts of members of Christian militia movements are chilling examples of assaults on the legitimacy of modern social and political institutions, based on the theological frameworks of reconstruction theology and Christian Identity thinking. These examples of Christian militancy present a religious perception of warfare and struggle in what is perhaps the most modern of twentieth-century societies. The secular political order of America is imagined to be trapped in vast satanic conspiracies involving spiritual and personal control. This perception provides Christian activists with both the justification and the obligation to use violent means to fulfill their understanding of the country's Christian mission—and at the same time offers a formidable critique of Enlightenment society and a reassertion of the primacy of religion in public life.
========================
No need to go on, few if any of you will read the whole thing anyway...it comprehensively contradicts your belief and opinions.
Christianity can and is used as a bloody weapon even today, as in the past.
Fact is facts, religion kills.
(Pax Vobiscum  ) |
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Questioner101
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:23 am Post subject: |
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Communism tried to wipe out religion, becoming a religion itself.
Mankind must have it's myths....whether or not they are really needed.
Apparently there is a place in the brain that lights up hallucinogenically.
Programed in by the "gods/aliens/foo-fighters off-world?? Or one of those little mutations Darwin was advocating.
Doesn't matter, it's still there, whether a weak force or strong (like magnetism or gravity.)
If humans would just allow other humans their own imagination, without judgment, peace might be possible. |
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inja
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:49 am Post subject: |
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*bump*
greeney I am just dying to hear what you have to say to all of this!!
As well as all those others who deny Christian atrocities in our modern times. |
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greeney2
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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The terrorism and violence I see from Islamics is directly from their leaders. They directly control countries and the people in them. These are the people at the top of this religion who issue these fatwas and death warrents, direct the harsh punishments and executions of their own people. The oppression of women by them is undenieable.
In responce you give a long winded opinionated summery of so called "Christian attrocities" beginning with ancient times. I said show me any other "religion" that does these things, and you havn;t. You summerize WW1 and WW2 as attrocities by Christians responsible for 50 and 90%, is an absurd statement.
Show me that The Pope in Rome, and all the Cardinals under him ordered and directed Catholics to do these things. The word from the top down to the parish level priests told all Catholics in the name of Jesus to do this. Show me that the top leaders of the Baptist, Presbiterians, Episapalions, ordere or directed these things in any way shape or form thru out their hyarchy of leadership.
You can not show any worldwide religion, that from its highest levels within its hyarchy down, have done these things, except for the Muslims. Not the Christian religion heads, the head of the Jewish, hindu, or Buddists, can you show this. The fact that many solgers in WW1 and WW2 may have been of Christian faiths, is no proof that the Christian religion is the root of these war deaths. What ever the statement about the holocaust was about I'm not sure the point. Hitler did the holocaust, and he certainly was not a religous head or any religion.
Thats what I have to say Inja, you have not proven any points about the Christian religion in modern times to me.
Why don;t you try proving that Muslim leaders are all innocent of what I say they do. |
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Halfabo
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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I won't go into detail concerning the whole post, I don't have time for that. I will respond to some of it though.
The crusades, were a direct response to Islamic aggression in Western Europe. And It was not a Christian response. The Crusades were instituted by the Catholic Church, first to repel the Muslim invaders in France and Spain. Then to reclaim the Holy Land from them. The Catholics did kill any Muslim, Jew or Christian who refused the authority of the Pope. The Catholic Church was never about Christianity it was about the domination of all people in the name of the Pope.
In some of the other instances, it seems the author of this piece makes the same mistake that the Muslims make about western civilization. They assume that if someone originates from an area with a heavy Christian population then they are automatically Christian. This is not the case. As you well know Sotexas. None of these things were instituted by Christians. That is obvious by the actions they committed. Just because some person may call them self a Christian, it does not make them a Christian.
You can only tell a true Christian by their actions. If a "Christian" is doing the things described in this article, they are not Christians. |
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Questioner101
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:23 am Post subject: |
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It seems that the "Semetic tribal" religions make a point of conquering...because their mountain gods told them to in dreams.
(Moses, Jacob, Abraham, Joshua etc. etc. "founding fathers" of destroying "idol worshipers" who's land they craved.)
The three "great" religions still are going at it. Islam, Christianity, Judaism (all based on the Semetic tribal gods) get their "ideas of conquest" from their individual volumes of scripture...picking bits and pieces out of them to "prove" their way is the right way.
What if all the books are incorrect? What if the "founding fathers/tribal prophets" were doing drugs and had really bad hallucinations?? What if the myths were simply imagination and greed? |
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Halfabo
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:35 am Post subject: |
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| What if you are the one on drugs and it is producing a paranoia too strong for you to handle? What if you are just suffering from an over active imagination? What if you have no clue what you are actually talking about but, you just like the sound of your own voice? |
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Aisv nv wa do hiya do/ walk in peace |
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okiejack
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:18 am Post subject: Re: Christian Violence...Yesterday AND Today, Greeney |
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| sotexas_spi wrote: |
| Greeney2 wrote: |
So you can not give a single example of any other religion, Christian or otherwise, that has done anything remotely close to this in the year 2007.
No other religion , does the kind of thing Muslims do like this! |
Ask and ye shall receive, Pops! But you "loaded" your position by limiting the timeframe. Expand your mind and the truth is revealed. Christianity is just as violent and present as it was 100years ago.
Christian Violence in History
The horrible truth is that, numerically and statistically speaking, Christian Civilization is the bloodiest and most violent of all civilizations in all of history, and is responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths.
Saint Augustine’s cognite intrare (“lead them in”—i.e. “force them to convert”). In fact the Qur’an says the exact opposite: There is no compulsion in religion ( 2:256 ). Augustine’s frightening idea that all must be compelled to “conform” to the “true Christian faith” has unleashed centuries of unparalleled bloodshed. Indeed, Christians have suffered more under the rule of Christian civilization than under pre- Christian Roman rule or any other rule in history.
Millions were tortured and slaughtered in the name of Christianity during the periods of the Arian, Donatist and Albigensian heresies
The Crusades
The European armies were saying, as they slaughtered both Christian and Muslim Arabs: “Kill them all, God will know his own.”
Europe's Reformation and Counter Reformation Era
Two thirds of the Christian population of Europe was slaughtered by Christians
The African slave trade
Claimed the lives of 10 million
The Colonial Conquests
Estimates for the number of Native Americans slaughtered by the Europeans in North, Central and South America run as high as 20 million within three generations.
The 20th century's Western Civilization took warfare to new extremes
A conservative estimate puts the total number of brutal deaths in the 20 th century at more than 250 million. Of these, Muslims are responsible for less than 10 million deaths. Christians, or those coming from Christian backgrounds account for more than 200 million of these! The greatest death totals come from World War I (about 20 million, at least 90 % of which were inflicted by “Christians”) and World War II ( 90 million, at least 50% of which were inflicted by “Christians,” the majority of the rest occurring in the Far East). Given this grim history, it appears that we Europeans must all come to grips with the fact that Islamic civilization has actually been incomparably less brutal than Christian civilization. Did the Holocaust of over 6 million Jews occur out of the background of a Muslim Civilization?
In the 20th century alone
Western and/or Christian powers have been responsible for at least twenty times more deaths than have Muslim powers. In this most brutal of centuries, we created incomparably more civilian casualties than have Muslims in the whole of Islamic history.
In the 20th century, Rawanda, 1994
Witness the slaughter of 900,000 Rwandans in 1994 in a population that was over 90 % Christian
1992-1995 Bosnia
The genocide of over 300,000 Muslims and systematic rape of over 100,000 Muslim women by Christian Serbs
Western popular culture
It should also be mentioned that although Islam has the concept of legitimate war in self-defense (as does Christianity, and even Buddhism), nowhere in Islamic culture (or in other cultures that survive today) is there latent the idealization, and perhaps idolization, of violence that exists in Western Culture. Westerners think of themselves as peaceful, but in fact the gentleness and sublimity of the New Testament, and the peace-loving nature of the principles of democracy, are scarcely reflected in Western popular culture. Rather, the entire inclination of popular culture— Hollywood movies, Western television, video games, popular music and sports entertainment—is to glorify and inculcate violence. Accordingly, the relative rates of murder (especially random and serial murder) are higher in the Western World (particularly in the U.S., but even in Europe, taken as a whole) than they are in the Islamic world in counties that are not suffering civil wars, and this true despite the much greater wealth of the West.
From religioustolerance.org
Current conflicts and wars:
It is important to realize that most of the world's current "hot spots" have a complex interaction of economic, racial, ethnic, religious, and other factors. We list below some conflicts which have as their base at least some degree of religious intolerance:
(I edited out the Muslim conflicts for obvious reasons...Christian violence is being questioned. sotexas_spi)
Kosovo Serbian Orthodox Christians & Muslims
Peace enforced by NATO peacekeepers. There is convincing evidence of past mass murder by Yugoslavian government (mainly Serbian Orthodox Christians) against ethnic Albanians (mostly Muslim) Full story
Northern Ireland Protestants, Catholics
After 3,600 killings and assassinations over 30 years, some progress has been made in the form of a ceasefire and an independent status for the country.
Philippines Christians & Muslims
A low level conflict between the mainly Christian central government and Muslims in the south of the country has continued for centuries. More details
Uganda Animists, Christians, & Muslims
Christian rebels of the Lord's Resistance Army are conducting a civil war in the north of Uganda. Their goal is a Christian theocracy whose laws are based on the Ten Commandments. They abduct, enslave and/or raped about 2,000 children a year.
Christian Violence in America
MARK JUERGENSMEYER
As the millennium approaches, the wave of antimodernism that has brought violent movements of religious nationalism in its wake around the world has arrived at America's shores. In the United States, attacks on abortion clinics, the killing of abortion clinic staff, and the destructive acts of members of Christian militia movements are chilling examples of assaults on the legitimacy of modern social and political institutions, based on the theological frameworks of reconstruction theology and Christian Identity thinking. These examples of Christian militancy present a religious perception of warfare and struggle in what is perhaps the most modern of twentieth-century societies. The secular political order of America is imagined to be trapped in vast satanic conspiracies involving spiritual and personal control. This perception provides Christian activists with both the justification and the obligation to use violent means to fulfill their understanding of the country's Christian mission—and at the same time offers a formidable critique of Enlightenment society and a reassertion of the primacy of religion in public life.
========================
No need to go on, few if any of you will read the whole thing anyway...it comprehensively contradicts your belief and opinions.
Christianity can and is used as a bloody weapon even today, as in the past.
Fact is facts, religion kills.
(Pax Vobiscum ) |
That's a load of negatively biased, sensationalized, overgeneralized, dramatized, anti-Christ crap.
Other than that Good post. |
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Aquarian
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:28 am Post subject: |
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Here comes the generalistically flat-statement from okiejack!  |
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okiejack
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| Aquarian wrote: |
| Here comes the generalistically flat-statement from okiejack! |
You left out realistic. factual. concise and armor peircing. |
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Questioner101
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:56 am Post subject: |
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It's always interesting that when someone asks a question regarding the "good books" some folks return with "personal" slams rather than answering the question.
Guess it's because they haven't studied enough about the makings of those volumes to actually not attack posters with slams. |
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okiejack
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| Questioner101 wrote: |
It's always interesting that when someone asks a question regarding the "good books" some folks return with "personal" slams rather than answering the question.
Guess it's because they haven't studied enough about the makings of those volumes to actually not attack posters with slams. |
There you go, jumping to inaccurate conclusions again.!
SoTexSpi comes to his misinterpretations of Christianity because of his disgust with the Catholic church.
So now you're calling disagreeing a "personal slam". How convenient for you. |
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lincoln6echo
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: |
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First, let me make clear to everyone that the Catholic religion is NOT Christian.
The obelisk of Nero located in St Peters Square in the Vatican is proof positive of that. Nero torched Rome, then blamed it on the real Christians in order to justify slaughter of Christians. Yet they honor Nero with an obelisk which in its origin was a symbol from ancient Babylon. Clearly not Christian.
A man can be a Christian or a patriot, but he can't legally be a Christian and a patriot--except in the usual way: one of the two with the mouth, the other with the heart. The spirit of Christianity proclaims the brotherhood of the race and the meaning of that strong word has not been left to guesswork, but made tremendously definite- the Christian must forgive his brother man all crimes he can imagine and commit, and all insults he can conceive and utter- forgive these injuries how many times?--seventy times seven--another way of saying there shall be no limit to this forgiveness. That is the spirit and the law of Christianity. Well--Patriotism has its laws. And it also is a perfectly definite one, there are not vaguenesses about it. It commands that the brother over the border shall be sharply watched and brought to book every time he does us a hurt or offends us with an insult. Word it as softly as you please, the spirit of patriotism is the spirit of the dog and wolf. The moment there is a misunderstanding about a boundary line or a hamper of fish or some other squalid matter, see patriotism rise, and hear him split the universe with is war-whoop. The spirit of patriotism being in its nature jealous and selfish, is just in man's line, it comes natural to him- he can live up to all its requirements to the letter; but the spirit of Christianity is not in its entirety possible to him.
The prayers concealed in what I have been saying is, not that patriotism should cease and not that the talk about universal brotherhood should cease, but that the incongruous firm be dissolved and each limb of it be required to transact business by itself, for the future.
- Mark Twain's Notebook
We teach them to take their patriotism at second-hand; to shout with the largest crowd without examining into the right or wrong of the matter--exactly as boys under monarchies are taught and have always been taught. We teach them to regard as traitors, and hold in aversion and contempt, such as do not shout with the crowd, and so here in our democracy we are cheering a thing which of all things is most foreign to it and out of place--the delivery of our political conscience into somebody else's keeping. This is patriotism on the Russian plan.
- Mark Twain, a Biography
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice--and always has been.
- Mark Twain's Notebook
[Patriotism] ...is a word which always commemorates a robbery. There isn't a foot of land in the world which doesn't represent the ousting and re-ousting of a longline of successive "owners" who each in turn, as "patriots" with proud swelling hearts defended it against the next gang of "robbers" who came to steal it and did--and became swelling-hearted patriots in their turn.
- Mark Twain's Notebook
We have a bastard Patriotism, a sarcasm, a burlesque; but we have no such thing as a public conscience. Politically we are just a joke.
- marginalia written in Clemens's copy of The Future in America; A Search After Realities by H. G. Wells
Governments have combined patriotism with religion in order to gain support
and to justify the absolute takeover of this planet in an evil conspiracy that does exist and is happening right now and has always happened.
America is not a Christian nation. It has never done anything Christ like.
(genocide of Native Americans, slavery etc.....)
Judge Christians by what Jesus did and taught, not by what man does and says.
Jesus said, you cannot serve two masters....God and man.
peace brothers. |
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greeney2
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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I really don;t see what ancient times, has to do with today. We didn;t live in the 10-12th century of the crucades, and whatever the Catholic church was or may have been, is irrelevant to today. Last time I looked my Catholic Baptism, First Holy Communion, and Confirmation was all very much about Jesus Christ, and we are baptized at birth. So to make it very clear back to you lincoln, Catholics are Christians. Unless you know something that can disprove it, so are about 1 billion other Catholics on this earth.
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| First, let me make clear to everyone that the Catholic religion is NOT Christian. |
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Questioner101
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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The past repeats, what happened these last 2000 years, still affects all humans on the planet.
Burying one's head in the sand doesn't excuse the lack of understanding...it only perpetuates the madness. |
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